Running 140 Hybrids LONG and H4350 HEAVY

[matt2143]

So I have two Creedmoor barrels for my AIAX (20" and 23.6"). 

Virgin 6.5 Creedmoor bras
CCI BR2 primers
Berger 140 Hybrid bullets
COAL to OGIVE 2.930" (AI mag fed)
H4350 powder
0.0015-2" neck tension

(I tried this with two lots of bullets and two lots of powder to see if this was a fluke)

I ran from 42 grains to 45.2 grains in the 23.6" with NO PRESSURE signs what so ever and maxed speeds at 2910 fps (ES 16 SD , 3/4" group at 200 yards.  From about 42 grains (2700 fps) up there was no accuracy until about 44.9 grains.

I spun on the 20" and ran 43.6 grains (2700 fps) up to 45.7 grains (stopped gaining speed at 44.8 grains).
Best accuracy from the 20" at 44.8 grains moving 2830 fps!!!  I had super faint (i could make out 2 of 5 cases has the slightest ejector swipes at 45.1 grains)  BUT NO SWIPES at 45.4 and 45.7 grains so I am thinking it may have been head space issues.

Anyways, I put the ammo on top of a hot engine under the hood to heat it up to around 85-90 degrees when testing since most of my shooting occurs during the summer.  Any one see anything like this?

My buddy is also running a custom, 140 hybrids loaded to 2.820" OAL with 44.3 grains pushing 2890 from a 25".

Did someone switch RL 17 and H4350 at the factory?  Am I missing something here?

[peace]

My load is not that hot but similar.  Anyone else finding accuracy nodes without pressure with this much powder?

FED 210M
Hornady Brass
140 Berger Hybrid
44.1grs H4350
COAL 2.805"

2885 fps from 25" Bartlein

[walkinhorseman]

Matt and peace, both of you guys are reporting on custom barrels. Are your chamber dimensions SAAMI standard? Any special throating.

[peace]

My barrel was chambered by Aaron Roberts of Roberts Precision Rifles using the "standard" PTG 6.5 Creedmoor Reamer.

[RifleworX]

The 140Hybrid has a much shorter bearing length than most other 140class 6.5mm pills ( except the Berger 140MBT that has an even shorter bearing surface ) this alone will cause less presure from like powder charges - also we have seen that the newer the lot of H4350 the slower the burn rate!!!!! Couple these together and You end up using more powder to generate the presure = to that of an older lot of faster burning H4350 and a 140 class bullet with a longer bearing length like the 140amax, 139scenar, 142SMK etc. etc.  Hope this helps ..

 Forgot to add - I shoot Hybrids in just about everything I own now including My good ol M1A / Best bullet design to come down the pike in forever / the only exception to this is the 6.5Creedmoor - I still prefer the 140amax, 140VLD & 139Scenar ( in that order ) in the creedmoor - the 140Hybrid at equal speeds to other 6.5mm powder/bullet combos does not seem to offer as big an advantage as the Hybrids do in other bore sizes... Now Yes You can drive the 6.5mm hybrid faster and gain some advantage but not as much as ballistic calculators would lead You to think!! When You put em on targets in the real world the wind bucking is not as big a gain as You would think BUT the flight time and trajectory are a wee bit better!!!!! About 95% of our data is from SAAMI minimum chambers in Krieger,Benchmark,Brux,Bartlein,Lilja & Muller barrels all 8" twist - and every type of rifling You can dream up 3C, 5R, 4standard etc. etc. in barrel lengths from 18" to 28"...... 
 If I had to pick the most forgiving bullet for the creedmoor I would say the 139scenar. The best ALL around Target/Hunting I would say the 140VLD but the best well rounded bullet is ( in My humble opinion ) the 140Amax - although this is slowly changing for reasons I will discuss in a very near future posting once I collect a little more data - gotta wrap some steamy meat around a few more of the test bullets before I form a Hard opinion..........

[peace]

The 140Hybrid has a much shorter bearing length than most other 140class 6.5mm pills ( except the Berger 140MBT that has an even shorter bearing surface ) this alone will cause less presure from like powder charges - also we have seen that the newer the lot of H4350 the slower the burn rate!!!!! Couple these together and You end up using more powder to generate the presure = to that of an older lot of faster burning H4350 and a 140 class bullet with a longer bearing length like the 140amax, 139scenar, 142SMK etc. etc.  Hope this helps ..

 Forgot to add - I shoot Hybrids in just about everything I own now including My good ol M1A / Best bullet design to come down the pike in forever / the only exception to this is the 6.5Creedmoor - I still prefer the 140amax, 140VLD & 139Scenar ( in that order ) in the creedmoor - the 140Hybrid at equal speeds to other 6.5mm powder/bullet combos does not seem to offer as big an advantage as the Hybrids do in other bore sizes... Now Yes You can drive the 6.5mm hybrid faster and gain some advantage but not as much as ballistic calculators would lead You to think!! When You put em on targets in the real world the wind bucking is not as big a gain as You would think BUT the flight time and trajectory are a wee bit better!!!!! About 95% of our data is from SAAMI minimum chambers in Krieger,Benchmark,Brux,Bartlein,Lilja & Muller barrels all 8" twist - and every type of rifling You can dream up 3C, 5R, 4standard etc. etc. in barrel lengths from 18" to 28"...... 
 If I had to pick the most forgiving bullet for the creedmoor I would say the 139scenar. The best ALL around Target/Hunting I would say the 140VLD but the best well rounded bullet is ( in My humble opinion ) the 140Amax - although this is slowly changing for reasons I will discuss in a very near future posting once I collect a little more data - gotta wrap some steamy meat around a few more of the test bullets before I form a Hard opinion..........

I don't know where you are getting your data from about the 140 hybrids but there isn't a 6.5 shooter I've met that if it was up to them would shoot anything else.

.260
6.5x47
6.5 Creedmoor
6.5 SAUM (4S)

The hybrid is the most friendly to be loaded, likes to be jumped(No land chasing with this bullet) and has the highest BC in its class.  It is leaps and bounds in bullet design above a 140 amax. 

When you talk about "our" data who are you referring to? The reason I ask is because it contradicts everyone I've talked to or read about. 

The only drawback of the hybrid is the cost.  Bullets.com is very reasonable in that regard.

[swampthang]

unfortunately I received the hybrids to test for berger before they became available to the public.
they are less sensitive to seating depth for the impatient reloaders that want a high b.c. bullet. but after testing 200 I found without a doubt that my best performance is like most others that shoot i.b.s. the vld is our bullet of choice. if the hybrid shoots to your expectations then great but for me its vld all the way.

[peace]

You have no idea how incredibly intrigued by this I am.

What speeds do you get and what distance have you trued your dope out to? 

[swampthang]

my recipie is as follows
hornady brass- fed 210 match primers-140 vld hunting-42.7 gr h-4350 =2785fps ,.109 5 shot groups at 100yds and just shot a shot i.b.s. group of 3.879 with a score of 48 at 1000yds in a sanctioned i.b.s. lightgun class. I seat my bullets .020 off the lands of a 28 in bartlein 5r -1:8 twist barrel. the only thing I'm in the process of changing is add a Montour county rifles (mcr) or hoover meplat trimmer and bullet pointer to raise the b.c even higher than .612. I am in search of a personal goal and trying to get every edge possible.

[Daniel Hall]

I would have to agree that the current lots of H-4350 are a little on the slow/low pressure side. I worked my way from 41.0 gr. to 43.5 gr. using once fired Hornady brass, Fed match primers , Berger 140 hybrids in a 24" Shilen select match barrel screwed onto a BAT action with a chamber cut with a snug reamer. The reamer was standard Hornady measurements except for the neck which has a .294" instead of the factory .296". All the brass was match prepped and ready to be consistent. As I worked up the ladder accuracy got better at 42.0, great at 42.5 and started dropping off above 43.0gr. All these loads were at 2.924"-2.928" C.O.L. with the Berger 140 Gr hybrids which is just NOT touching the rifling. Although the best group fired out of my rifle came from the 42.5 gr load with a Hornady 140 gr A-Max set into the rifling with a square mark from the lands. I'm not sure of the velocity of these loads as I've been a dog and not set up the chronograph while doing this ladder load. I imagine there would be another accuracy node somewhere above 43.5 gr. I just didn't find it. I thought it would be to hot. By the sounds of things it may be safe to go high enough if quality components and proper assembly methods are used. Be careful and good luck.

Dan

[RifleworX]

Peace

 Was not ragging the 140Hybrid it shoots just as good or maybe a wee bit better than the others - I  just dont like it enough in the 6.5CM to justify the added cost ( I only go through about 2400rds. a year in My personal rig ) / I do shoot Hybrids and only Hybrids in every other Rig I own  just not the Creedmoor..  We refers to Rifleworx -   Rifle Builder and Co-Owner ..
 We test constantly out to ranges beyond 1250yds. and see average speeds with 140class bullets around 2850ish with 26inchers

 FYI to all interested the 140VLD does indeed jump VERY well in the 6.5CM but it is a LONGGGGGGG jump     averages around .110" jump in most guns I have tried and at this jump seems to have about a .020" or so window of tolerance before You have to adjust for throat movent....
 

[swampthang]

theoretically the hybrids should shoot as good or better than the vld with a little higher bc and they have rapidly gained the respect in the longrange game that berger intended,they just don't outperform the vld's in my builds.

[peace]

Peace

 Was not ragging the 140Hybrid it shoots just as good or maybe a wee bit better than the others - I  just dont like it enough in the 6.5CM to justify the added cost ( I only go through about 2400rds. a year in My personal rig ) / I do shoot Hybrids and only Hybrids in every other Rig I own  just not the Creedmoor..  We refers to Rifleworx -   Rifle Builder and Co-Owner ..
 We test constantly out to ranges beyond 1250yds. and see average speeds with 140class bullets around 2850ish with 26inchers

 FYI to all interested the 140VLD does indeed jump VERY well in the 6.5CM but it is a LONGGGGGGG jump     averages around .110" jump in most guns I have tried and at this jump seems to have about a .020" or so window of tolerance before You have to adjust for throat movent....

I will have to give the VLDs a try. I am all for improvement.  I've been reading a lot of variance with chamber length.  Some guys are touching the lands in the 2.9" world. Even loaded to 2.80" C.O.L when I eject one I get lands marks on the bullets.    Is this difference in reamer spec or could my chamber have been cut short?

[RifleworX]

Peace

 Truth is you could cut identical chambers with the same reamer and headspaced the same but in barrels with two seperate rifling profiles and you will end up with what you are speaking of... But land marks on a hybrid @ 2.800OAL seems a bit short throated to Me -- Before jumping to conclusions about Your chamber  Try not to get hung up so much on anothers load just verify the touch with your barrel and bullet of choice then work from that measurement!!!!!
 
 

[Rooks]

Reddrum,
 Can you explain to me the "bearing length". I'm planning on trying the hybrids soon.